Welcome to the African Civilization Research Committee (Made up of ME! )

In this thread African civilizations and their attributes are laid out for Kevinman to decide which civilizations are to be represented in the World History Mod.
The civilizations are subject to scrutiny by Kevinman and the WHM community.
The research is headed by ME, with direction conveyed by Kevinman.
C&C is welcome.

Welcome to the mother land! Civilization list is on second page, sorry for any inconvenience.
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The traits I have so far are...

aggressive
protective
imperialistic
nationalistic
extremist
peaceful
charismatic
financial
industrious
organized
spiritual
philisophical
cultural
classy
seclusionist
collectivist
revolutionary
expansive
humanitarian
traditional (conservative)
exploitive
peacekeeping
liberal
oppressive

Note that you are welcome to make any feasible trait, really you are just describing the nation.

Also note that you are not so much describing the leader as the nation. It should be a combination or a compromise of the two.

Finally please forget the notion that you should have two traits. Have as many as describes the civ.

Kevin

Sorry, I didn't notice you already had Egypt and Nubia on your list, keep going with them

There are a couple that seem to be missing, such as Fulani, Adal, etc.

It is of course up to you whether to cover them, and if you feel they shouldn't be included, please let me know; my African inclusions were some of the least logical/most subjective

I few are missing, yep. Sorry about that, I just wanted to keep as much off until I got more done. But then I just started to add a few for no reason... I'll let you know if their are any I think shouldn't be in, but that's just my two cents :p . .. . Adal isn't the best civilization, it was a mere Sultanate and not an empire. And Fulani was also just a caliphate... But I will take another look at them and see.... Tell you the truth i immediately dismissed them when I saw caliphate and sultanate...

Fulani should be included; since in this mod the civs are incredibly expanded, I am not just doing empires, but civilizations and notable states. Fulani declared war on a whole bunch of African civs and I know it conquered Segu. Supposedly, this was a major event in Africa at the time. Adal I'll leave up to you; it grew to be pretty large, but I know very little about it.

I noticed you combined Axum and Ethiopia- that's fine for now, but I am going to read up on it and make a decision on whether or not they both have something to offer individually. Again, I'm not that great on African history, or at least certain regions specifically, so I'll have to do some reading.

Edit: Oh, and thanks for updating. Good work so far! I will update my list asap. I also have not yet posted information on the UUs and UBs you have provided. I will add those soon in the proper thread.

Kevin

UUs and UBs are updated in the proper thread. I am still debating the inclusion of Nok, Bantu. Loango is unlikely. Please provide your opinion on their inclusion. If you want, I can represent Bantu as nomadic. Does it really qualify as a notable civ, or should it be a somewhat nomadic inclusion? I will be representing major nomads, tribes, etc., and this has already been done by other modders somewhat.

I still haven't read up on Adal, so that is status quo.

Also, Stade Nacional sounds more like a wonder than a UB. Normally, it should be present in many cities. Just think of the names of buildings: grocer, bank, school, etc... they're all generic. So you may just want this is a wonder. Let me know your opinion on this.

For the Benin UB, by 10% more defense than walls, do you mean from 10% to 20%, or do just mean 1/10 stronger, as in 11%? I'm guessing you mean the former but I just thought I'd check You never know

oh and i just remembered, there will be modern zimbabwe (mugabe) and Great Zimbabwe

While Nok was one of the first Civilizations in the West of Africa, so it doesn't have a whole lot of recorded history but I think it might be a fine add. Bantu, while when I first saw them on the list I thought "Why are they there?" and I wasn't going to do them on my list at first, but... Anyways, they don't have to be a civilization, I have an idea on what they could be used for but I'll post that later, anyways, nomads is okay for the bantu.

On Stade Nacional, it could be a wonder if you want, but it is just a stadium.

hehe, I meant 10% to 20% stronger.

I got both Zimbabwes kinda of covered

oh, i should tell you that i took the flags for mali, songhai, swahili, tunisia, benin, kanem bornu, loango (if included) and any modern civs and their historical equivalents from EU3/google.

the flags we still need are: Kongo, Great Zimbabwe, Nubia, Nok, Takrur, Bantu (if you decide to include it as a normal civ, it can just as easily be nomads; you said you had an idea for this civ, what was it?), Ghana (historical), Hausa, Fulani, Zulu, and MAYBE oyo (though I think I have it).

I will likely have to draw one for Carthage, Aro Confederacy (the existing flag will look weird when squished, and I highly doubt it's the historic flag but rather a modern tribal representation of it).

Keep up the good work, I'll check for stuff I need to update tommorow

Kevin

Actually, I like what you did with the Zimbabwes- Great Zimbabwe will probably be represented/combined with Mutapa.

Here is the current African civ list:

Algeria/Algiers
Asante
Aksum
Benin/Dahomey (IND?)
Benin/Edo (IND?)
Carthage
Egypt
Ethiopia/Abyssinia
Fulani
Ghana
Kanem Bornu
Kongo
Mali
Morocco
Mutapa
Nok?
Oyo
Songhai
Takrur
Tripoli/Libya
Wolof
Zulu

Independents/Minor Civs:

Adal
Bachwezi?
Cayor?
Denanke
Fez
Funj
Ghana (modern)
Guinea
Hausa
Igbo/Aro
Kasanje?
Loango
Luba
Lundu
Madagascar
Mankessim/Fante
Matamba
Ndongo?
Nekor?
Ouaddai
Rwanda?
Segou/Bamana
Senegal
Swahili
Tanzania
Tunisia
Wattara/Kong
Yoruba

Note: minor civs prolly dont need information, except maybe start and end, etc.... i dont know

So note that some civs have become minor civs and some have probably been added.
There will also be a culture category, though that will be difficult to fill in and to implement, as each civ doesn't neccessarily have its own proper culture.

I am still unsure of whether or not Aksum will be combined into Ethiopia, I'll let you know soon. But for now it would be good to do a seperate profile for it, just in case

There will also soon be a list of Government Types. Keep an eye out, though I have no idea how this will work yet.

EDIT: Also, I don't know how you've been doing the UUs and UBs but I'm assuming you list just the changes/additions, and not all the effects? If so, good!

Good work with the list, I'm editing stuff in now. EDIT: done

Alright, I'll around that from now on, Let me know what you decide for Aksum/Ethiopia.
For UUs and UBs I was just putting down their additions/changes

If you got any questions about anything just say so...

Also, here are some wonders:
Ark of the covenant - Wonder
Park of the Obelisks
Tomb of Ramha
Temple of the Moon
Lalibela - Wonder
House of Song
Luxor Temple
Valley of Kings

Morocco refers to the entire timespan of the nation (medieval to present). It would be cool to have a historic UU/UB, and leader.

For Algeria, the UB probably needs changing- it doesn't sound (and I may be wrong) like much of a UB. Anyways let me know more about it, but make sure it's unique enough to be the UB

Also, the Mediterannean cityset refers to Greco-Roman cities. And there is no mediterannean unit set. Also, I thought Algeria, especially in modern times, is mostly arab or black. It should probably be a muslim, or if not black, unit set.

Also, I'm interested in hearing your reasoning behind suggesting a black version of Ramesses, and although I have nothing against blacks or for white Europeans, I believe strongly that he was white. Not just because of the archaeological findings, but because Africa was largely divided into white north africans, pygmies, khoisans, bantu?, blacks, and only later did the blacks in a huge population movement almost completely overtake all the other groups. I believe Ramesses must have been Berber, and probably tan rather than black. In the Egyptian area, the black population movement was from south to north, so although I will probably portray Ramesses as white, Taharqa (or whoever will be ruler or Nubia) will be portrayed as black or at least darker.

Also, should Numidia be included?

EDIT: and don't forget Wolof, as well as the Benin/Dahomey, though I don't know how strong the latter is and you can always suggest that I take it off

EDIT: and a question: should I split Nubia (they were lots of different states over the years), ie Kerma, then Kush, then Makuria and the others? OR just Kerma, Kush (encompassing Kush plus makuria and the other nubian states) OR just a generalized Nubia?

EDIT: Also, although I want you to use as many UHVs as neccessary, 5 UHVs per civ is proving to be a little too much. The simple fact is that I have 200 civs, times 5 UHVs, times many hours of figuring out the code, is simply too much. Try to combine UHVs where possible, stick to important UHVs, choose unique UHVs, etc. The range should be, with a few exceptions if need be, from 2 UHVs for a weak and less important civ to 5 UHVs for a very strong civ, maybe 6 for ones like America. Also, if at all possible, remember to keep them as similar as possible to already existing UHVs (from other mods, probably just RFC), so at least I can cut down on coding time. I really do suck at coding. It just seemed like you were striving really hard for 5 UHVs for even marginal civs; don't worry about getting 5, and if you see any opportunities, cutting back would be appreciated.

EDIT (from the next day ): Also, it appears Algiers (algeria), Tripoli (libya) and Tunisia were all nations since sometime before 1399 (according to EU3, which starts at 1399). It supplies real kings for Tripoli at 1399 and starting 1711; and it supplies king names for all but the 1600s. Consequently, if at all possible, please try and find historic UU/UB/leader, but if you can't find any you can always fall back on modern ones. (on the map it shows algeria and tripoli as remaining for the most part unoccupied by the ottoman empire, and they exist in the game all the way from the start of 1399 to the end in the 1800s)

And also, fantastic work so far *thumbs up* you're doing a really good job of researching all this

When the time comes and this is all complete, I will need help visualizing the artwork of the UUs and UBs, because I have no clue what a lot of the generic african military looked like, never mind these specific UUs. Plus, I have no clue where you researched all this, and probably wouldn't be able to find it. Once I know sort of what they look like I'll be able to handle the artwork no problem, I just need some ideas

and don't worry about being busy, thanks for chipping away and hanging around in the long-term

Kevin

On the matter of North Africa:
I would like to say that the belief that north Africans were light skin people is (and I mean absolutely no offence) absurd.
To break it down I'll start with Berbers:
The Berbers are native north African peoples. They were dark skinned Africans that would formed several kingdoms before Europeans colonized north Africa.
The Berbers were dark skinned people, with maybe a slight lighter tone then Southern Africans. I would like to point out that the reason a number of Spaniards are darker skinned then their light European brothers, is because of Moorish rule in the area. The Moors are Berbers.
However, early colonization by light skinned Europeans over a very long time-span has had a toning effect, causing most North Africans to have a lighter tone then their Southern brothers and some Southern Europeans have a darker tone then their northern brothers.
That, mixed with Arabian Islamization, North Africans had been continuously mixed with lighter skinned peoples to the point were it is harder to find a black north African, then it is a light skinned one. Also, many dark skinned North Africans have been pushed out (one way or another) by light skinned colonist.
But then, the same is with Native Americans who after three hundred years of colonization, are much lighter then their ancestors.
But, I know with absolute certainty, that ancient North Africans are of Dark Skin. Not Light.
And I am disappointed every time I see the nonsense perpetuated in games like Civilization, and movies and such.

Now Egyptians and Ramesses.
Any belief that any period of Egypt before Roman conquest was of light skin dominance is... While... Disheartening.
The Egyptians are black Africans. Ramesses was a black Egyptian, ruling Egypt long before light skin conquest.
This myth that Egypt was of light skin people was solely started because of the Great Pyramids, and the fact that Europeans did not want to admit that the very same people they were enslaving were able to create such great things that they couldn't dream of doing.
It has been perpetuated throughout the years because Europeans are the main breeders of education on Egypt due to the fact that they have destroyed native African history and the ability for Africans to tell of their native history.
Educators are taught this nonsense and then pass it on to their students and so on, though I have heard that their are Educators that have admitted that ancient Egyptians are in fact black Africans.
Around 525BC, Egypt was conquered by Persians, who were still dark, but lighter then their Egyptian counterparts.
Then, around 332BC, The Greeks took over Egypt, who were far lighter then their Egyptian counterparts. This started the tend to lighter skinned Egyptians.
After that, Romans kicked the lightening into full gear, followed by lighter skinned Arabians and then topped off by English rule.
So, yes, over time the majority of Egyptians have become light skinned. But in Ramesses time, that was not even near the case. Just like the case of Great Zimbabwe, where for so long it was taught that whites built it. But that was far harder to uphold then white Egypt and fell apart.
Middle-Easterns were also of darker skin, not necessarily as dark as Egyptians, but darker then Europeans. It was European incursions that drove most to lighter skin.

All in all, it was not 'Black population movement was from south to north' but European movement from north to south.
I am very disappointed and disheartened that an educated person such as yourself would tell me this. It would be very depressing to see you further more perpetuate this in your mod


On Morocco. I will now start work on it and see what I can't come up with

I will also look for a better suitable replacement for the Algerian unique building

Thanks for the heads up on the Mediterranean.


Numidia would be alright to add, however it may be a tad hard to come up with Uniques for it.


Opps, totally forgot about Wolof :p I'll start on it asap and I don't think Benin/Dahomey(Which is the modern nation) is big enough on the world stage to be in IMO.


I think a generalized Nubia would be best. Because if it were cut down, most would share the same Us as they were really the same people. Also, they wouldn't stand a chance against a human played Egypt or Ethiopia.


Okay, sorry about that. I'll rework the UHVs asap. I was trying to keep them at three each but then you said to make as many as reasonable... soo...


When the time comes, I'll do my very best to help you visualize what needs done.
No problem with the hanging around, this mod looks really good and I would love to play it when it is done, so I'll stick with it to the end

Keep up the good work! Hopes thing are coming along!

EDIT: WHOA, good thing I removed what I just wrote, I have brutally misread something on a couple of occasions. Anyways screw part of what I said about population movements. And also note that I have not been educated to believe they were white, and I know that Great Zimbabwe was built by black-skinned africans

If they are like Berbers, then the question would also be, how black were Berbers and similar North Africans at -4000BC and at 0BC? I would imagine there was transmission from Europe and the Middle East since long before then (although in far smaller amounts), so perhaps Berbers were quite dark at the time, but not pitch black like East/Central Africans? And I also know that Egypt was hugely in contact with the Middle East. Certainly in the Dynastic Period the Egyptians were quickly lightened, which supports my view that Ramesses should be dark but not pitch black. But even before that the North part of Egypt (where the capital was) was certainly lighter and in contact with lighter-coloured people. A quick wikipedia search confirmed what I had heard of- the transfer of a darker skin colour from the Nubians/lower Egypt up north, possibly when they conquered them, which would support a darker colour but since then contact with Europe and Arabia only increased.

Also, if Ramesses did have red hair, and I don't know if this is propaganda, but it should be true, then he probably had a lot of European genes. At the time Egyptians were genetically 60% European-like and 40% black-like, and if Ramesses had red hair, I believe he would have been about 80% European-like, and could have easily had green eyes and that the game's depiction of Ramesses is accurate. Plus I know someone who's black (well dark brown) and has green eyes

Hatshepsut, on the other hand, was ridiculously portrayed by the game, and should be at least be light brown, if not darker.

What I plan on doing is to take both leaderheads in photoshop or GIMP and do one or two black burning cycles over Ramesses' skin and five+ burn cycles over Hatshepsut. The biggest errors are also in the units. The ancient Egyptian units will be coloured Obama-brown, while Nubian ones will be pitch black, along with other African nations, which are currently only brown or lighter

also, just note that I edited in a request for Algeria/Libya in the previous post at the last second before you posted; just letting you know

And by "why did you request that black ramesses" I am simply referring to the shade of his skin, and not his background. Obviously he was a North African. Mind you, I don't exactly consider Obama black, along with most current Afroamericans, I'd call them brown. But I still contend that Ramesses had a lot of whitish/europeanish genes, while I agree that other elements especially need to be changed.

Kevin

Here is the skin colour I am proposing for Ramesses, Hatsh., and Egyptian, Nubian and generic African units.. I am quite confident that Ramesses was no darker. In fact, I'm almost dead certain that the shade of the Ramesses that shipped with the game is correct; however, at least this will match the darker populace a little better.











The leader of Nubia will be fully black. The units are a little lighter than real life because if I make them too dark I lose all the detail (muscles, facial features, etc.). Nubian units may be made a smidgeon lighter just for the boost in detail (a lot of detail was lost with that shade), and because Central/East Africans are probably a barely noticeable amount darker. The generic african colour I showed may become a little darker, especially around the chest.

I would say that transmission between North Africa and Europe would have been very slight, and surly not enough for a general lightening of skin tone before 800BC when Phoenician traders settle on the coast. However, the Phoenician traders settling North Africa to create Carthage were Middle Eastern and thus didn’t have a large tone difference between North Africans (though they were lighter). Mixing would have been only slight back then, and so the North Africans would not have gotten much lighter skin from the Phoenicians. The main lightening would have started with the Romans around 24AD when they took control of parts of North Africa. Major displacement of Native Berbers would have an impact on modern North Africa. Also, within Roman control, mixing would have been kicked off; one of the reasons would have been intermarriage between Romans and Berber nobles to gain Berber support. After that, the succession of European imperialist would have had the effect that you see today. Overall, unless the first Berbers were light skinned, it wouldn’t have been till even after roman control that North Africans would generally become lighter skinned then their other African brothers.


Egypt, not sure if they were Berbers, but I don’t think that the general population would have been lighten till at least the first foreign conquest.
Also, Nobles would not have gotten lighter for some time, since they would not have married outside of their ranks. Even if Egyptians were not as dark as their southern brothers, they were still dark. About Ramesses… From what I know both his parents were dark skinned, and unless they too were light skinned to begin with, then it would not be likely that Ramesses would be that light. Another, I highly doubt that Ramesses would have had red hair. That is not likely because unless there was some European direct blood link, I don’t think he would have gotten red hair. Red hair at that time was uncommon even in Europe, so in the Middle East and Africa it would have been extremely uncommon and would have been better noted and wouldn’t have taken archeologist to discover that.
And again, unless his parent(s) were of light skin, how did he end up light? That would fall to the general darkness of the Egyptian populace, actually even if the general population were to get a lighter tone from continued contact with Arabians and Europeans (which is unlikely till after their fall) the nobles would not have mixed with others thus keeping their dark skin.
I do not believe that the Egyptians were that much lighter then the Kushites. So, unless the Egyptians were light skin to begin with, Ramesses would have been pretty dark.
Barrack Obama had a Caucasian mother, so he’s not totally African. And most African-Americans have been mixed many times with Caucasians and have been separated from Africa for generations on end, so are undoubtedly of lighter skin tone then their brothers in Africa.
But Ramesses was born to a fully African mother and father in Africa, with likely no mixing, so unless Egyptians were light in general to begin with, and I think we both agree that they were not, then Ramesses would not have been that light, also Ramesses was ruler before even the Greeks started their empire. And the Kushites and Egyptians are very closely linked so why would they be so much darker then the Egyptians.
Okay, so maybe he wasn’t as dark as Shaka the great or Mansa Musa but he was far darker then any Greek or Arabian or what was shipped with the game.

On the proposed shading: Is that first unit going to be the Egyptian one? Because in my personal opinion it’s too light. And Ramesses could use a sunbath, but the other three are okay.


I’ll look into Algiers (algeria), Tripoli (libya) and Tunisia to see what I can’t come up with

Best of luck to the mod, hope it's coming along

Edit: I've shorten some of the UHVs. Tell me if you think they need more work.
EDIT: Have you decided on Axsum/Ethiopia yet? Cause I'm dead certain that they really were the exact same kingdom.

For Ramesses, although I think extensive contact (maybe not settlement but contact) with the Levant, and indirectly with Europe would support a quicker lightening. However, if it was true that both his parents were very dark, and they never marry outside rank, I guess he can be made darker. It just comes down to whether we believe that an African background meant he can't have red hair, or whether red hair meant he can't have had a fully African background. Personally, I believe the red hair thing might be a bit of propoganda.

Anways Ramesses will be darkened one and a half burn cycles (the shade of Hatsh., though he might look more eastern due to the muscles on his face... I may use a different model, similar to the one you showed me).

While unfortunately the Egyptian units are too light, I am reluctant to make them too much darker as the Nubian set is already very without detail. I will see if I can half the difference between the two.

While I am (usually) representing dynasties seperately, and Aksum was a different dynasty and almost a different empire, they are basically the same, and I think civ4 merged the two together too. To answer your question (or not) I don't know. I don't yet know what I'm doing with dynasties. Probably some I'll split (China) and some I'll leave together (part of the history of Arabia). For now I guess join them and I'll let you know if they should be seperated.

I'll check out the UHVs tonight *thumbs up

EDIT: Also, to help you out a little with those North African civs I just mentioned, you can use the Fusta as one of their UUs. It was a pirate/corsair ship for North Africa; see if you can find out where it was most used (Algeria, Morocco, Libya). My guess would be Algeria, just because it was strong and near Spain.
EDIT: And I will be researching and trying to validate/unvalidate the red hair notion and the general Egyptian gene mix. Although I think North Egyptians were lighter than you think, for the reasons above, your opinion would seem the logical one for Ramesses.

Kevin

First of all I'd like to mention the fact that I am Egyptian. So while this doesn't necessarily make me an expert in a scholarly manner it does mean that I have some background about the subject. Recent research has proved that the gene mix of Egyptians hasn't undergone great changes since the ancient times so contemporary Egyptians are believed to represent a close image of their ancient ancestors. It is true that Egypt was invaded by many foreign races but this didn't affect the main racial features of Egyptians as there haven't been any major immigrations into Egypt since prehistoric times.

There should be a distinction between dark skin color and African racial features that include many other characteristics of different body parts. Many peoples are dark skinned but not Africans (racially). Most Arabs are dark skinned, Southern Indians and Australian natives are also dark skinned. Now this doesn't mean that Egyptians are not Africans they are a mix of African and west-Asian roots. The same also goes for Ethiopians with just a different degree. So, while being dark skinned doesn't make someone African, also being light skinned doesn't make someone non-African.

Light skinned people of North Africa are not foreign intruders they have been there since pre-historic times and ancient Egyptians belong to this (African) group.

When it comes to how dark would Ramses or Hatshepsot should be depicted, I don't really care. I should only reject the Ramses in the first post as his features don't resemble any of his statues and he had so many and some are very well preserved up till today.

Well, I wasn't particularily decided on the matter to begin with; I'll leave it open. And I agree, as long as the features look right- for example grishnash's suggestion is way too rounded and West African, and lacks the chin/cheek shape of Ramesses. I'll take a look at some good depictions and post a picture of the finished leaderhead in the unknown but near future. But yeah, that's my belief, that the most intermingling happened before all these muslim, greek invasions, etc.

@Grishnash (you've been silent, though I see you've edited your first post), I noticed that the first UU replaces Guerilla. Does that mean you think that should be a new unit? If so, what str + effects would you like it to have? And is there anything you need me to update?

Sorry, I've been very busy later, RL handed me a mountain to get over :p
I've done a bit of updating to my list, though Algeria and Libya are proving to be quite hard to pin down before their modern times. So, they might take some time.
Now, the Guerilla would be a sweet unit to add, IMO. I thought that it would be in WH which is why I put it there, but if it's not just tell me

Edit: Wow! I just noticed that there are only two pre-colonization South African Empires...
<,<
>,>
And one east African....

Just for the location of the Empires, and think that maybe the Kingdom of Luba(The Kingdom of Luba was a pre-colonial Central African state, which arose in the marshy grasslands of the Upemba Depression in what is now southern Democratic Republic of Congo.
The Luba have a wealth of natural resources such as gold, ivory, copper, frankincense and ebony but they also produced and traded a variety of goods such as pottery, Masque… The emergence of the Luba empire had a profound impact upon political and artistic practices in the Central African savanna)/Empire of Kitara( Kitara was a kingdom which, at the height of its power in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, included much of Uganda, northern Tanzania and eastern Congo (DRC), ruled by a dynasty known as the Bachwezi (or Chwezi)) could be moved from minor to major... Unless I could dig out another major African Empire thats NOT in the west or North................. <,<
>,>